Grand Jury Decision in #Ferguson

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This isn’t the first time that I’ve blogged about Ferguson.  Here’s my first post about Ferguson.  And while I still stand by what I wrote there (specifically that not all people have the same experiences with police, the Church can’t be silent about issues like Ferguson, and Jesus always sided with people who were hurting and marginalized), things have changed a bit since Officer Darren Wilson was not indicted by the grand jury.

And here’s my second post about Ferguson.  And while I also stand by what I wrote there (namely that Christians in situations like the one brought on by the events in Ferguson should take time to listen, feel, stand in solidarity, and walk in community), things have changed a bit since Office Darren Wilson was not indicted by the grand jury.

The grand jury not indicting Michael Brown’s killer changed things.

The Decision by the Grand Jury Changed Things…

Or did it?

Sure, there are now protests all across the country and the response to the decision of the grand jury in Ferguson has been marked here and there by looting and violence.

But here’s the truth, the issues that Ferguson brought to the forefront for so many people of color still exist.  The decision by this grand jury has done nothing to change this.

Here are few of those issues:

  • Median household wealth — Whites 91.4k; Blacks 6.4k
  • Home ownership — Whites 72.9%, Blacks 43.5%
  • Median household income — Whites 59.8k; Blacks 35.4k
  • Unemployment rates — Whites 5.3%; Blacks 11.4%
  • Poverty rates — Whites 9.7%; Blacks 27.2%

Here are a few more issues the decision of the grand jury didn’t change:

  • “Blacks are more likely than others to be arrested in almost every city for almost every type of crime.”
  • There are pockets in the US where it’s worse than elsewhere, such as in Clayton, MO (which is near Ferguson), where black people make up 8% of the population while 57% of the people arrested in Clayton are black.
  • “Only 173 of the 3,538 police departments” examined in a particular study have arrest rates of blacks equal to or lesser than those of other groups.

And here are some more unchanged facts that the grand jury’s decision didn’t change:

  • People of color make up about 30% of the population but about 60% of the prison population.
  • 14% of black people use drugs regularly but 37% of those arrested on drug charges are black.
  • White students are over-represented in America’s colleges.
  • 4 million people of color experience housing discrimination every year.

How to Respond in Light of the Decision by the Grand Jury

So, since things haven’t really changed all that much, how are we to respond?

  1. When talking to someone who is angry about Ferguson, focus less on the facts and more on the anger and pain your conversation partner is feeling.  Having a debate with them about forensics reports, eyewitness accounts, and the like won’t get you anywhere.  Instead, talk to them about why they are feeling the way they are.
  2. Get into a posture of listening.  There’s nothing worse than a chatty Cathy whenever someone is hurting and grieving.  And, friends, many people of color are deeply pained by what’s going on in Ferguson.  It’s time that we started talking a bit less, and listening a lot more!
  3. Spend less time judging people who are doing things you may not agree with (like looting and committing acts of violence), and spend more time trying to understand what led them to a place where behaving in such a way seemed like a viable option.  Mother Teresa reportedly said that if we judge people we don’t have time to love them.  And if ever there was a time for love, it’s now!
  4. Educate yourself about issues of race and ethnicity in the US (and elsewhere!).  If you don’t know where to start, use Google.  Type in the following: “Evidence for white privilege.”  I’m sure you’ll learn a thing or two; I know I have!  Also, read some books.  Here are two suggestions that are on my to-read list: The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Era of Color Blindness by Michelle Alexander and Just Mercy: A Story of Justice and Redemption by Bryan Stevenson.
  5. Lastly, and in my opinion most importantly, diversify your friend set.  This may be difficult, but the effort will be worth it!  The single most important moment in the development of my understanding of race and ethnicity grew out of a conversation that I had with a deeply trusted friend of color.  My hope is that the same thing can happen for you!

So did the decision by the grand jury change things?  Yeah, a few.  There are more protests.  The Brown family is left with no semblance of justice.  Officer Darren Wilson will not face criminal charges.  And social media has blown up with millions of posts.

But other than those things, the system continues unabated.  The racial and ethnic divides continue to grow.  Racism of various sorts and degrees still exists.  And things are still heavily skewed in the favor of some and against others.

 

What are your thoughts?  Let me know below!  (And please keep things civil; I will watch the comments closely!)

88 thoughts on “Grand Jury Decision in #Ferguson”

  1. Matt, I greatly appreciate your blog posts in regards to this issue. I have always had an ingrained knowledge of the fact that because I was born male, white and from a family that was middle class, if not slightly upper, I have had an advantage. To say otherwise is truly disingenuous. You have sited many of the same facts I have repeated ad nauseum. Most people listen, shake their heads, get uncomfortable and then shrug their shoulders and say, I don’t believe those statistics. How do you overcome that kind of blind indifference. I have had some success in my life and have stated that it is as much “luck” as my hard work. I also fully know that my “privilege” made it easier for me. For me, I am not religious and don’t attend church, not since I was 17, but I have deep respect for the words and teachings of Jesus. It is disheartening for me when christians seem to ignore simple parables. I have always had empathy for people of color, but I could never imagine what it is like to be a person of color. I don’t have be concerned with the issue of driving while black. To be honest, I wouldn’t want too. Just look at the statistics you sited. Why would anyone want to have deal with that. But they do, everyday, and until people with power acknowledge the situation, change will be slow to occur. Keep up the good work, and hopefully I haven’t embarrassed myself too much with my ramblings.

  2. I respect your opinion, but reads like excuse making as if these poor “other” people just cannot help themselves but misbehave. How do you define the “privilege” of those who come to the United States with pennies in their pockets and in 20 years have built tremendous wealth? Those don’t fit into narrative. Start treating these “other” groups like people and not pets – that is the ultimate racism.

    • There is a very distinct difference from how other recent immigrants have found there way to America versus how Blacks got here. We often forget that blacks were white property for over a 100 years before emancipation. However, emancipation didn’t really reslove the issue did it. Just read that statistics Matt posted. It is not Asians, Indians, other anglo immigrants being arrested at a rate twice that of whites, it is black people. And it happens because too many white people still see blacks as “those people”. I hear that all the time. It’s mostly the blacks that are given that indifference, not other minorities.

      • I did not realize you were just simply pointing out that black people commit more crime than white people. I interpreted your thoughts as attempting to excuse the lynch mobs and looting because some folks do not like hearing the facts of a case. If that is the case, my bad.

        • My point was that arguing with someone who is hurting about something is of almost no value. But the facts are the facts. Black people are arrested for similar crimes more often than white people are. There’s lots of other facts like this that point to the fact that white privilege exists.

          • Are you implying that white privilege causes black people to commit more crime? I think the folks in Appalachia would be interested in hearing your thoughts on white privilege as well.

  3. I read the statistics, and they can be interpreted simply that blacks commit more crimes. Do you think that is inaccurate? Do you think ceasing to arrest black people in order to balance statistics would be a good solution? How does seeing someone as “those people” cause those people to commit crime? Interesting how I just heard not supporting illegal immigration made me racist so I am not sure the race card only applies to this particular minority group.

    • Yes that is inaccurate. And no, no one advocates for crime to be ignored. But if you two people committing the exact same crime and one is white and one is black, the black person is twice as likely to be arrested, prosecuted and incarcerated over the white person. That is a fact!! That is white privilege and racism.

    • There are numerous studies that show that black and white people commit similar levels of crime and yet black people are arrested more often and sentenced to longer sentences than white people.

      • How do you think studies determine if people commit crime but are not arrested? What do they rely on the collect and verify the evidence? Would love for you to print a link to one of those studies (the study, not political propaganda).

      • BTW – if I could show you that Asians and Indians are arrested at lower rates than blacks or whites, would that prove based on your hypothesis above that actually Asian and Indian privilege is the culprit?

  4. Thanks for this post. Some reading you might enjoy is a collection of 21st century essays called “Doing Race” by Markus & Moya. Many of the essays talk about the root of racism (against several different races such as African-Americans, Asians, Native Americans, and Latino/Latinas) in this country. I’ve been learning a lot about many of these issues in my “Multicultural Values in America” class this semester and my Bilingual and Multicultural Education class. Studies show time and time again that black people are constantly dehumanized in our country, and still thought of on par with animals. White people still believe that black people feel less pain. Black people – as young as toddlers – are seen as criminals and bad people. The justice system is biased in the favor of white people and has been since our country was founded. I appreciate you speaking out about these issues and trying to educate others on the racism that is still prominent in our country.

    • So if the justice system is biased in favor of white people, why are so few Asians and Indians convicted of serious felonies and why is the crime rate among Asians and Indians so low? Is there Asian and Indian privilege?

      • Asian’s and Indian’s do not have the same kind of privilege as white people. Asian’s and Indian’s (I’m assuming you mean Middle-Eastern people, because Indian is an inappropriate term for Native American) have their own set of racial issues to deal with. Like the fact that America literally interned Japanese people during World War II (where many of them died from disease) or the fact that Asian people are constantly represented with gross, negative stereotypes in the media. Or the fact that when you hear the word “Indian,” it is synonymous with “terrorist”. When you hear Latino/Latina or Hispanic, you think “illegal immigrant” and when you hear black people, you think of “crime”. I think it’s a false equivalency to compare these and say that one race is better than the other, not to mention you are derailing the conversation by bringing in an arbitrary argument about other races. We are talking about the justice system and black people right now. Try google, you’ll learn all about the injustices that other races have suffered at the hands of our government. Maybe read the book I just suggested to my cousin too.

        • Maybe if you use Google you’ll learn about this amazing country called India. I will not spoil too much for you, but it is an ancient civilization that is currently the second most populous country. I would suggest you add high school to your multicultural class. While I appreciate your confession, just because you stereotype people there is no need to project (you can Google that too in your freshman pysc class). Why do you think Asians do so well economically and culturally (apparently according to Matt’s self-reported Google studies, they commit no crimes) if FDR imprisoned them and drove so much injustice?

      • Alriiiiight you’ve totally missed the point so I’m done with this conversation. Thanks again Matt for this enlightening post and sorry for the inappropriate derailment of the topic at hand.

  5. You guys all have a Happy Thanksgiving. As much as I love trying to push people to become more open minded, some of us have to work for a living and get to bed … Grace and peace to you all.

    • Sorry about this but I can’t let this last comment go. You can’t be serious about that open minded comment. The lack of open mindedness, understanding, empathy and comprehension by a majority of people, particularly white people, is exactly the point Matt was making. At least that was my impression of his post. If I missed your point Matt please correct me.

    • I agree … this thread demonstrates general lack of open mindedness, understanding, empathy and comprehension by white people. Too many start with a conclusion and cherry pick facts to support those conclusion, which is the same thing people are doing about the Ferguson situation. Let’s create a racial narrative and then cherry pick facts to support that conclusion – something an open minded person would not do. I actually agree with Matt’s premise but let’s not bend crime statistics – or create mythological ones – to support or prejudices and biases. Because as easily demonstrated on this thread, the illusions quickly collapse when challenged. If you really want to be a force of change in the world, step out of your (perceived by my admission) cocoon of conformity and ask tough questions. To do that requires surrounding yourself with people that have diverse points of view, and it is very uncomfortable – but you’ll exit likely a better thinking and I hope a better person.

      • I have grown more in the last 2 years as I’ve been attempting to diversify my friend set then I have any other two years of my adult life. It’s absolutely true that having people in your life with various viewpoints is a very good thing.

        • Good for you. As evidenced by the case laid out in The Big Short, more people are self-segregating than ever before. A quote by author Bill Bishop: “We now live in a giant feedback loop hearing our own thoughts about what’s right and wrong bounced back to us by the television shows we watch, the newspapers and books we read, the blogs we visit online, the sermons we hear and the neighbourhoods we live in.”

          With this you get posters who have a pre-packaged lecture about “Native Americans” versus “Indians” but have no ideas there is a huge country called India or posters who can regurgitate “facts” from Googled blogs but really have no ability to understand or comprehend the implications, correlation, or causality. When challenged, they have no answer because those were not in the Talking Points, which we have come to value more than critical thinking. People can regurgitate phrases like “white privilege” they heard from their “X Studies” prof but lack the ability to actually discuss it independently, so it is easier to live in a self-affirming bubble than a diverse world.

      • So, because you appear to interpret statistical analysis as having a perceived bias, and probably a “liberal” one at that, you continue to argue a point of view that fits your world view, and everyone is just biased or prejudiced. The continued lack of belief in science continues to mystify me. And this particular issue in Matt’s blog is separate from the other issues you try and inject into the discussion. What I get from your posts is that black Americans are simply trying to justify their lot in life by playing the race card, and you feel that they don’t actually have a justification for those feelings, because look at all the other successful non-white people. And to answer one of your questions above, the judicial system is not so much biased towards whites, its that it is biased against blacks. Whites, and too a large extent other races as well receive judicial discretion that blacks don’t get. Just Google “judicial discretion “. If we fail to acknowledge that racism exists, the problem can’t be fixed. So if the perception that many black Americans have is that life for them is different, from how the power structure interacts with them, how the media represents them, like the welfare queen, even while more poor whites are on welfare, and continues to be marginalized, we all loose.

        • My friend you are projecting and using straw men arguments. You also keep changing your position when refuted … it first was white privilege now it is black disadvantage. It is impossible to have a conversation this way. And to quote Mrs. India above, I believe you have missed my point. I respect your opinion I just disagree with you … because you have not presented any facts to support your position. (“Google it” is not a fact)

  7. what is sad is that mos of us do not really know the full story behind the shooting. I can’t begin to find a place to take a stand until I’m fully informed, which you are never going to find by just listening and reading the media …we would have had to be there and see it first hand.

  8. You said “…where black people make up 8% of the population while 57% of the people arrested in Clayton are black”. Have you ever asked yourself “what if the 8% was responsible for 57% of the crime”? You jump to a conclusion by not taking into account the honesty in the numbers.

      • Absolutely not. But merely posting statistics without examining all of the possible explanations of why they are the way they are is not smart.

        Answer these questions:

        What if, in Clayton, a small percentage of people were responsible for the majority of the crime?
        What if they happen to be black?.
        What if the numbers are an accurate portrayal of crime?
        Can you prove otherwise?
        What if the key players in Clayton happen to be black?
        What if the police fairly enforced the law?
        Can you prove what you are implying by posting those numbers?

        What if you found a city where only 8% of the population was white and they were responsible for 57% of the crime? Would you believe it? Or would you accept it because the race in question is white?

        You are ignoring the possibility that the numbers tell the truth. You can’t discount the argument just because you don’t like the numbers and the possible implications for one race.

        Just because the numbers are the way they are does not mean that there is any racism in law enforcement. You have to go deeper than that.

        • There’s a problem in Clayton and it has to do with race. Here’s a quote from Claytons police chief: “Ferguson has laid bare the fact that everyone in law enforcement needs to take a hard look at how we can better serve our communities and address any disparities that have existed in our departments for too long.”

          • What do you know of Clayton? Are you from there? Have you seen the disparities? Have you spoken to the victims of the crimes and heard them describe the criminals? What happens when you look at the disparities, try to fix them, but can’t because there are none. What if the numbers are accurate? That is all I’m saying.

            Can he make his officers stop arresting the people that commit crime just to make the race numbers even? No.

            People are so caught up with the numbers these days but do not know how we got there.

            How many white people are committing crime in Ferguson right now? What do you think that will do to Ferguson PD numbers? If you were to look at the crime numbers for November 2014 in Ferguson, a year from now what would you see? You would see a drastic spike in crime and almost all of it committed by black people. Now imagine if you didn’t take into account what happened in Ferguson November 2014? If you didn’t know that there was racial rioting caused by the lack of an indictment, you could assume that the numbers were wrong and that black people were being unfairly targeted by the police. But, you know what happened. And if you know why the numbers are the way they are you can accurately identify what is driving them.

          • So you will believe one police chief that agrees with your side of the argument, but you won’t agree with the dozens of other police chiefs that have said otherwise?

          • Here are some of the quotes you missed in the USA Today article you used.

            “Those disparities are easier to measure than they are to explain. They could be a reflection of biased policing; they could just as easily be a byproduct of the vast economic and educational gaps that persist across much of the USA — factors closely tied to crime rates. In other words, experts said, the fact that such disparities exist does little to explain their causes.

            “That does not mean police are discriminating. But it does mean it’s worth looking at. It means you might have a problem, and you need to pay attention,” said University of Pittsburgh law professor David Harris, a leading expert on racial profiling.”

            ***********************

            “”Our numbers are what our numbers are. Our officers aren’t being told to look for any particular demographic. We come across what we come across,” Allen Park Police Chief James Wilkewitz said. Allen Park has two interstate highways and a large retail complex not far from the edge of Detroit, and many of the people the city’s police arrest live somewhere else.”

            *****************

            “In some ways, Dearborn has become an odd place to hear such complaints. Its police department won a civil rights award this year. Haddad is the state’s first Arab-American police chief. And among the most significant lawsuits over policing there is a complaint that county sheriff’s deputies didn’t do enough to protect a group of white Christians who were protesting at an Arab festival in Dearborn.”

          • No one is denying that this is a complicated issue. The question still remains why is it that certain neighborhoods are more policed than others? If the answer is because there’s more crime there, then the question needs to be why is there more crime there? If the answer to that is something like black people, or Latinos, or lower class people commit more crimes naturally, then we have an issue of racisn or classism. Why is it that minorities and people of lower incomes tend to be less educated, have less income, etc.? And what can we do to solve the systemic problems?

          • Let me turn the question around. Would you propose police reduce policing in high crime neighborhoods?

            Most police will tell you they police in high crime neighborhoods. They police there because that is where the criminals are … more criminals = more crime.

            Do you think Asians, Arabs, Persians, and Indians are less educated and have less income than average, or do you think they make up the majority of America?

      • Yes. After numerous conversations with people like anonymous and ekyles, the answer to your question is, yes. I believe they believe that only black people commit crimes.

        • You obviously missed the point. I probably could have done a better job a relaying my point but did not. I do not believe that. I am saying that sometimes the numbers are right. Hopefully one day, I will figure out a way to better communicate what I am trying to say. I just want people to question the numbers a little more that’s all. My apologies.

        • You’re projecting and arguing against straw men again. This is why I can tell you live in a self-affirming, non-diverse world. Seems like you have no way of responding to people that are not very similar to you. Diversity scares you and you respond with emotion … like playing the race card. I could have predicted that three days ago but was hoping to have real, authentic conversation.

          • This is a code word for the Race Card (in addition to being a straw man): ” I believe they believe that only black people commit crimes.”

      • There were 50 people at my wedding. if you were to look around you would have seen 46 white people, 1 Indian, 2 Latinos, and 1 African-American. My wife and I are both white, mostly. One person could look at the people there and come to the conclusion that my wife and I don’t have many minorities in our “friend set”. I can see how someone could come to that conclusion if they didn’t know me and how my wife and I set up our guest list. However, the truth behind the numbers would reveal that 40 of the guests were related to us. We only wanted 50 people there because that is all we could afford. So, that only left us with 10 spots to fill with friends. We picked our closest friends and that is how our guest list was filled.

        There is a truth behind the numbers that needs to be sought after. If you only look at the numbers and only take their face value, you will only get part of the story.

        • No one is denying what you’re saying. Statistics need to be fully understood.

          But the numbers cited above are vetted. The people who live in Clayton that are in the know, such as the Chief of Police, agree with these numbers. And they agree that they are based on race.

    • People look at the numbers and think that surely that can’t be right. If 57% of the community is white then they must be responsible for 57% of the crime. If they aren’t then the police are biased against everyone else because they aren’t arresting the same number of people in different races.

      You must first learn how they arrived at those numbers to understand what they mean. You can’t look at the numbers and guess why they are what they are.

      • Black people commit a disproportionate amount of violent crime in the United States. If anyone actually cared, they would work to solve that problem rather than pretend white people actually commit all of these crimes, and the police run around arresting innocent black folks. The vast majority of victims of crime are black, so helping to reduce violent crime would disproportionately improve the lives of black people as a community.

          • Was the post above about violent crime or drug possession? There is no reliable evidence that white and black people use drugs in equal amounts. If you have any facts, would welcome you post them here. Otherwise, I will offer that Asians and Indians self report using drugs at higher amounts than whites and blacks … so there must be Asian and Indian privilege.

          • I don’t think “facts” or “ignoring” mean what they think they mean. I am more than happy to continue a conversation but it has to include some modicum of intellectual honesty. It also would be helpful if you would answer direct questions rather than starting new straw men. Also helps to avoid normative statements that no reasonable person would assent to like “the Washington Post is quite conservative.”

            Not sure why you’re so anchored on drug possession. Maybe because that is the only one from which you have any evidence that supports your bias. Do you actually think self-reported data is reliable? Would you be comfortable using self-reported data in scientific or intellectual pursuits? For example, if scientists “self-reported” temperatures rather than using actual readings to deny global warming, would you be comfortable with that?

            Second, if one were to grant self-reported data is perfectly adequate, do you think racism is what drives the disparity? Do you think there might be other factors at play?

            I’ll re-post my original thought, which you continuously ignore: Black people commit a disproportionate amount of violent crime in the United States. If anyone actually cared, they would work to solve that problem rather than pretend white people actually commit all of these crimes, and the police run around arresting innocent black folks. The vast majority of victims of crime are black, so helping to reduce violent crime would disproportionately improve the lives of black people as a community.

            A good discussion might be centered on ways to fix this problem.

          • There are many people trying to do something about this problem, my wife and I included. But only is your question worth pursuing, but why are more black people being arrested in the first place. Many chiefs of police admit to over policing poor and minority neighborhoods.

          • They over police because those neighborhoods are riddled with crime. The citizens complain and complain about crime in those neighborhoods so they get more patrols. Hence more arrests in those neighborhoods.

          • But why are there more crimes there? Why is it that, if what you’re saying is true, that minorities and lower class people commit more crimes? It can’t be because they are more inclined to biologically. That’s simply not the case. There must be other systemic issues. What are they? And what do we do about them?

          • Biology has little, if anything to do with it. The color of their skin has nothing to do with it.

            This is an issue with a multifaceted answer. One of the answers is the neighborhood itself. If you put most people in those types of neighborhoods, it is very possible that they would turn out the same way, regardless of their skin color. There is a criminal culture that thrives in neighborhoods like these. It glamorizes crime, idolizes violence, and worships money. Kids grown up witnessing and being victims of terrible violence. Fights are an everyday part of life. They grow up in war zones with the mantra of “kill or be killed” and I can’t blame them. Right now, those neighborhoods are filled with minorities in this country. It is a terrible way to grow up.

            It takes people pointing out the error of the ways. To teach them that violence is not the way. But those types of changes don’t happen overnight. The innocent people that live in those neighborhoods still have to be protected. The murderers still have to be arrested. That means more patrols.

            I bet you could find evidence of this in every country around the world. Go to the poverty stricken neighborhoods of any country and you will find a lot of crime, no matter what color the residents are.

          • True.

            In our context the way that black people and Latinos have been treated in our country from the time of their arrival, whether voluntary or involuntary, still plays a major factor in the systemic issues that they face as a part of the American system.

          • How many drive-by’s happen in neighborhoods where the average house is worth $500,000 or above? Why is that?

            I don’t think race has anything to do with the root of the problem.

          • Sure it does. Why aren’t there more black and Latino families living in neighborhoods with $500,000 houses? The fact that they aren’t, if it isn’t a biological problem or inherent moral deficiencies, is a sign that there are systemic racial biases in our American system. Most of them are implicit rather than explicit, but they still exist.

          • If anyone is interested, go to the Washington Post, the opinion section and search for a piece just written by Carol Anderson. She is a professor at Emory University. Discusses many of the outlier issues that this board is attempting to address. I would give the full link but it is hard to copy and paste with my mobile device. So I ask you to use Google.

          • What about Asians and Indians (these are people from the nation of India not Native Americans, Sydney)? Why are they not impacted by the way they have been treated in our country from the time of their arrival? Why do they seem to succeed in spite of the systemic issues that they face as a part of the American system?

          • James – thanks for posting the article. I read it … and while I usually turn off any “racist studies” professors I read Prof. Anderson’s piece. Honestly, interesting place to start a conversation but not sure this blog is the best (technical) forum for such a conversation. But, it deserves a few thoughts since you bothered to post it. (you might want to not let Matt know you’re posting from the Washington Post, which he apparently thinks is owned by the Tea Party 🙂 ).

            First, if Ms. Anderson’s arguments were valid, we would expect to see the evidence. For example, since much of the blame she places on Southern states and Democratic politicians of the past, we would expect economic, cultural, and political performance of blacks outside the South to be markedly difference (since Southern Democrats were responsible for most of the community’s problems). Do you believe the evidence bears that out?

            Second, I understand Democrats hate voter ID because it reduces voter fraud, and the party survives on “vote early, vote often.: As a proponent of expanding the franchise, I support adding integrity to the system. Do you think Nelson Mandela supported voter ID? This is in no way germane to the overall conversation, she is just opposed to voting integrity because she is a Democrat. And of course she plays the Race Card against the Tea Party because she is a Democrat and hates any time grass-roots conservatives organize or seek to have their voices heard. Unfortunately for Ms. Anderson and other bigots, the Tea Party is diverse.

            Third, the Barney Frank recession was caused by the federal government forcing banks to make subprime loans to subprime borrowers in poor neighborhoods, so of course those folks will get hit the hardest. It is like when politicians blame universities because affirmative action kids – that they forced to be admitted – do not do well in a rigorous meritocracy.

            Long story short, it is a long-line of excuse making, one necessary to keep “racist studies” professors employed … while racism is a party of the problem, until people discuss problems holistically and honestly, nothing will get done … you see where trying to address part of the problem got Bill Cosby.

          • There is only one of your points I have time to address now and that is the issue of “so called voter fraud”. Don’t let your tea party credentials out so so much. I kid. If you could actually publish one valid study that actually proves voter fraud exists we will discuss, but since there isn’t, it is the biggest straw man argument around and I know how much you love that term. Now, I see no need for voter id since laws on the books pretty much takes care of it. No one has yet explained to me why anyone would risk 2-10 to cast a fraudulent vote. However, the last half dozen people arrested for voter fraud have been republicans. If people were truly concerned with voter ID, it would not be hastily implemented and the ID would be provided to the voter free of charge, with the state giving ample time for full implementation. I actually worry about election fraud, like the kind that has happened in FL in 2000 and again in each successive elections. Over 200000 voters removed from the voter rolls with no real cause. Electronic voting machines that have no real verified count, built by private corporations that have reasons for election outcomes. Concern yourself with that, it is the real concern.

          • Do you find it interesting that you label people you disagree with as a means to psychologically de-humanize them and then attack the label rather than the logic?

            I have witnessed voter fraud in two separate counties, so I now it exists, and there are plenty of examples (my family has been convicted of it in a third county). There is an aphorism called “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence” which might be helpful here. Ironically, you relied on this earlier claiming white people commit all this crime that they are not arrested for. While that may be true it is virtually impossible to prove (as you demonstrated). The reason hardly anyone gets caught is because it is so easy to do, especially with early voting, mail ballots, etc. I was simultaneously registered multiple times in my home state and easily could have voted three times and never would have been caught. There is a reason Democrats invented “vote early, vote often.” Losing this advantage is why the Democratic Party tries to play the Race Card to squash voter integrity initiatives (I assume but grant it is unfair to judge intent).

            I do not disagree that voter ID systems could be better implemented, and as to your other claims of fraud I simply am not aware of it but does not mean it is not true … certainly explains how President Obama was re-elected.

            I will ask again:
            – Why would you oppose a system that increased election integrity and improves the franchise for all?
            – Would you agree to a voting system endorsed by Nelson Mandela?

          • http://www.demos.org/sites/default/files/publications/Analysis.pdf

            http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-14-634

            http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/07/09/7-papers-4-government-inquiries-2-news-investigations-and-1-court-ruling-proving-voter-fraud-is-mostly-a-myth/

            http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/12/washington/12fraud.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

            http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/11/13236464-new-database-of-us-voter-fraud-finds-no-evidence-that-photo-id-laws-are-needed

            http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/08/28/republicans-admit-voter-id-laws-are-aimed-at-democratic-voters.html

            What I find most interesting in the article by the NY Times, quoting the GWB administration admitting that after a 5 year investigation and millions of dollars spent, OOPS, nothing. Now, I am fairly sure that with all the right wing hysteria surrounding voter fraud, that if it actually existed to the extend that it could change the outcome of a federal election, the GWB administration would have found it and screamed about from the rooftop of the white house.

            Voter fraud may be a myth created for GOP electoral advantage, but the voter suppression laws passed by Republican legislatures are REAL. And I don’t believe in personal anecdotes as evidence, sorry. Again, it has been the intent of the Republicans for over 40 years now to suppress the vote, reduce voter turnout. http://www.salon.com/2014/11/09/the_gops_infernal_election_strategy_why_suppressing_the_vote_could_keep_republicans_in_power/

            As for Mandela, I don’t have any idea what his thoughts were on voter ID, and I am not sure why I should care other than you think it is supposed to represent something because he was a black man who became President of a country that is overwhelming black. We are not South Africa. And I am not attacking you, I clearly am taking issue with your “Logic”. There is nothing I can say that will make you read actual facts regarding voting fraud. Your opinion is “I believe it, so therefore it’s true.”

            Now again, I don’t oppose voter ID, I just find it unnecessary based on the empirical data. And again, if republicans and conservatives were really interested in fairness, they would pass voter ID laws that actually don’t create a financial burden or hardship on the voter, and I think it should be free for everyone. You know what the republicans are trying to do when in TX, a Concealed Carry Permit is and acceptable form of ID but a college ID is not. Why do states try and limit the number of early voting days instead of expanding them? Limit registration drives, limit the ability of 17 year old seniors in High School from registering. Separate local elections from the national elections. It’s so blatant what the intent is. Because when more people vote, republicans loose, and they loose big. They know it, they cop to it. They should try and improve their message, because someday, no matter how much suppression they try and do, they will never win another national election, the demographics are against them. Evangelical, white old people (mostly male) can only carry a national party so far.

          • You seem to find it very surprising that left wing columnists created hysteria about voter suppression and deny voter fraud. I would not expect less.

            I can post links to: http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/apr/10/dick-morris/dick-morris-theres-proof-over-1-million-people-vot/

            There is no comprehensive system to monitor voter fraud. I am trying to understand why you would oppose adding integrity to the system and improving the franchise for all? If voter fraud does not exist, do you think most democracies require voter ID? If so, why do you think that is?

            My point on Mandela was that the Race Card canard generally is part of the left-wing hysteria on voter suppression, and since Mandela often is used as a paragon of racial virtue, I was wondering if you think he would support a racist voting system? Do you think he supported voter ID?

            How do showing a voter ID create financial burdens or hardships? Do you think people do not need IDs for other things in life or just voting? Do you only have identification in order to vote? (while I am not sure about Texas, let me make the obvious point – do you know who issues concealed carry permits? do you know who issues college IDs? think about it)

            Candidly, not sure really where your going with the Talking Points at the end … but I do agree the GOP message of personal responsibility and freedom is a tougher sell. Being required to take responsibility for your actions and your family is a harder sell than vote for me, get free stuff. People would much rather give away their freedom and responsibility for more state control if it means more goodies. People always will vote to get more free stuff.

            Anyway – enjoy … as I said in my first post, this is not the right place to get off into the weeds of a whole other issue. Nice meeting you … enjoyed the conversation.

  9. “Data from the UCR, NCVS, and self-report studies have provided criminologists with an abundance of information about criminal offenders. For example, these sources show that 60 percent of all people who are arrested are between the ages of 19 and 39 even though this age group represents only 28 percent of the total U.S. population.” This is a quote from Crime and Criminal Justice published by Jones and Bartlett.

    Does this mean that law enforcement is biased against people between the ages of 19 and 39? Or, is it an accurate reflection of the people who commit the majority of crime??????

  10. Pingback: Broken Systems | New Wine | J. Matthew Barnes

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